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	<title>Comments on: A Degree in Social Computing? Oh&#8230;The Irony</title>
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	<description>Learning with the Read/Write Web</description>
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		<title>By: mark oehelrt</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-2/#comment-19419</link>
		<dc:creator>mark oehelrt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 00:49:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-19419</guid>
		<description>Pardon me for arriving late but as an anthropologist I did have a question....what the hell? Leaving aside the whole credential question and much like discussions over the 2nd Amendment, I am struck moreso by the 1st clause &quot;learn to analyze online social interactions, both in online communities and in more diffuse social networks.&quot;

Umm...I looked through the courses and didn&#039;t see a one on anthropology or ethnography in general nor one on kinship analysis or even one on social network analysis. I&#039;m just really looking at the what is being offered here and it seems to fall short of preparing one technically to design and or manage a social network and it seems to fall short of providing one the &quot;deep reading&quot; capabilities required to critical analyze and &quot;read&quot; social networks...oh thanks to the poster who dismissed most of the social sciences or really any qualitative methodology as mere &quot;anecdotal understanding&quot;...

So even if this degree is offered by an institution that is fully immersed in a regime that seeks to repress the ability to gain socially valuable credentials except thru their doors...isn&#039;t the degree itself as currently constructed, rather a badly designed mishmash which offers to provide neither a skill set for building or analyzing social networks?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pardon me for arriving late but as an anthropologist I did have a question&#8230;.what the hell? Leaving aside the whole credential question and much like discussions over the 2nd Amendment, I am struck moreso by the 1st clause &#8220;learn to analyze online social interactions, both in online communities and in more diffuse social networks.&#8221;</p>
<p>Umm&#8230;I looked through the courses and didn&#8217;t see a one on anthropology or ethnography in general nor one on kinship analysis or even one on social network analysis. I&#8217;m just really looking at the what is being offered here and it seems to fall short of preparing one technically to design and or manage a social network and it seems to fall short of providing one the &#8220;deep reading&#8221; capabilities required to critical analyze and &#8220;read&#8221; social networks&#8230;oh thanks to the poster who dismissed most of the social sciences or really any qualitative methodology as mere &#8220;anecdotal understanding&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>So even if this degree is offered by an institution that is fully immersed in a regime that seeks to repress the ability to gain socially valuable credentials except thru their doors&#8230;isn&#8217;t the degree itself as currently constructed, rather a badly designed mishmash which offers to provide neither a skill set for building or analyzing social networks?</p>
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		<title>By: Norman</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-2/#comment-19412</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Apr 2007 20:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-19412</guid>
		<description>This is just another attempt of traditional school to re-establish itself as &quot;the authority&quot; over learning. Scarcity and authority no longer present the only way to learn. School has become irrelevant to the future of learning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is just another attempt of traditional school to re-establish itself as &#8220;the authority&#8221; over learning. Scarcity and authority no longer present the only way to learn. School has become irrelevant to the future of learning.</p>
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		<title>By: OLDaily[中文版] &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 2007年4月19日</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-2/#comment-19202</link>
		<dc:creator>OLDaily[中文版] &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 2007年4月19日</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-19202</guid>
		<description>[...] 一旦这样的计划启动了，他们就应该颁发学位，这个逻辑是很无情的，我将会去选修Social networking，谢谢（在应用以外你可以找到我的地址） 。[链接] [Tags: Web Logs, Networks] [讨论]? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 一旦这样的计划启动了，他们就应该颁发学位，这个逻辑是很无情的，我将会去选修Social networking，谢谢（在应用以外你可以找到我的地址） 。[链接] [Tags: Web Logs, Networks] [讨论]? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-2/#comment-19165</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-19165</guid>
		<description>Shery said:

It isnt a degree in social computing but very much an example of how you can use a higher education course to help students (preservice teachers) make sense of all they are learning (both in and out of class) through a school of the future lens. Much like in the day of Socrates — it helps to have a critical friend there modeling and asking hard questions for self- reflection. 

There are two key points here that I would agree with wholeheartedly.

Firstly just because some people use Web 2.0 tools a lot doesn&#039;t mean that they can leverage the full potential for learning out of those tools. Even the appropriate use of Web 2.0 tools is very patchy in my experience. Working online in a community where one aim is the critical evaluation of those tools, as well as abstracting or chunking up to get to the essential meaning is invaluable.

Also having others to ask the &#039;hard questions&#039;, provoke criticism and reflection is invaluable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shery said:</p>
<p>It isnt a degree in social computing but very much an example of how you can use a higher education course to help students (preservice teachers) make sense of all they are learning (both in and out of class) through a school of the future lens. Much like in the day of Socrates — it helps to have a critical friend there modeling and asking hard questions for self- reflection. </p>
<p>There are two key points here that I would agree with wholeheartedly.</p>
<p>Firstly just because some people use Web 2.0 tools a lot doesn&#8217;t mean that they can leverage the full potential for learning out of those tools. Even the appropriate use of Web 2.0 tools is very patchy in my experience. Working online in a community where one aim is the critical evaluation of those tools, as well as abstracting or chunking up to get to the essential meaning is invaluable.</p>
<p>Also having others to ask the &#8216;hard questions&#8217;, provoke criticism and reflection is invaluable.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-2/#comment-18939</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-18939</guid>
		<description>I agree with Heather. The irony here is that this degree is not offered online... (I e-mailed the school just to be sure!) Hmm...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Heather. The irony here is that this degree is not offered online&#8230; (I e-mailed the school just to be sure!) Hmm&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: OLDaily[中文版] &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 2007年4月9日</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-2/#comment-18209</link>
		<dc:creator>OLDaily[中文版] &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 2007年4月9日</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 12:45:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-18209</guid>
		<description>[...] 对此，我唯一的评论是反智主义（anti-intellectualism）（译注：一种存在于文化或思想中的态度，而不是一套思想理论，是对智性(intellect)、知识的反对或怀疑，认为智性或知识对於人生有害而无益）有别于反形式主义，把这两者混为一谈是不恰当的。Liz lawley 写到，“如果对这个复杂的话题没有一个系统的有条理的理解，我们就冒着一个不从大局着手的真正危险，就会全凭自己的经验以偏概全。”以我的经验看，即使有了一个系统的有条理的理解，风险仍是存在的——就像公路系统，它可以让你更快到达目的地，但也必须冒着穿越沼泽和森林的危险。Will Richardson, Journal April 9, 2007 [原文链接] [Tags: Web Logs, Experience, Patents] [参与评论] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 对此，我唯一的评论是反智主义（anti-intellectualism）（译注：一种存在于文化或思想中的态度，而不是一套思想理论，是对智性(intellect)、知识的反对或怀疑，认为智性或知识对於人生有害而无益）有别于反形式主义，把这两者混为一谈是不恰当的。Liz lawley 写到，“如果对这个复杂的话题没有一个系统的有条理的理解，我们就冒着一个不从大局着手的真正危险，就会全凭自己的经验以偏概全。”以我的经验看，即使有了一个系统的有条理的理解，风险仍是存在的——就像公路系统，它可以让你更快到达目的地，但也必须冒着穿越沼泽和森林的危险。Will Richardson, Journal April 9, 2007 [原文链接] [Tags: Web Logs, Experience, Patents] [参与评论] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Higher Edison</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-2/#comment-18131</link>
		<dc:creator>Higher Edison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 22:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-18131</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;social computing: the new english major? ...&lt;/strong&gt;

[Disclosure: Other than an English degree, I lack the proper credentials to comment on what follows. Onward!] Another fascinating imbroglio going down recently over at Will Richardson&#039;s Weblogg-ed, this time on a host of issues surrounding the Univers...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>social computing: the new english major? &#8230;</strong></p>
<p>[Disclosure: Other than an English degree, I lack the proper credentials to comment on what follows. Onward!] Another fascinating imbroglio going down recently over at Will Richardson&#8217;s Weblogg-ed, this time on a host of issues surrounding the Univers&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dean Phillips</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-2/#comment-17951</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 21:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-17951</guid>
		<description>Greetings Colleages,

I have recently written an article regarding Wiki Technology and Human Capital. In the future, credentials will not matter as much as knowledge, and published content. The permutations of wiki and blog networks is expanding at an exponential rate.

What will the Universities look like in 5 years? The University landscape is going to change. The professional training center technology will be vastly different in 5 years. You tube, and other self publishing technology will enpower the educator, professor or subject matter expert to be their own training center, radio host, etc. and the list goes on!

See the Article-Freedom of Human Capital-The Power of Internet Wiki

http://educators.pbwiki.com/Freedom%20of%20Human%20Capital-The%20Power%20of%20Internet%20Wiki%20</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greetings Colleages,</p>
<p>I have recently written an article regarding Wiki Technology and Human Capital. In the future, credentials will not matter as much as knowledge, and published content. The permutations of wiki and blog networks is expanding at an exponential rate.</p>
<p>What will the Universities look like in 5 years? The University landscape is going to change. The professional training center technology will be vastly different in 5 years. You tube, and other self publishing technology will enpower the educator, professor or subject matter expert to be their own training center, radio host, etc. and the list goes on!</p>
<p>See the Article-Freedom of Human Capital-The Power of Internet Wiki</p>
<p><a href="http://educators.pbwiki.com/Freedom%20of%20Human%20Capital-The%20Power%20of%20Internet%20Wiki%20" rel="nofollow">http://educators.pbwiki.com/Freedom%20of%20Human%20Capital-The%20Power%20of%20Internet%20Wiki%20</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ideas and Thoughts from an EdTech &#187; Opening up my world</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-2/#comment-17921</link>
		<dc:creator>Ideas and Thoughts from an EdTech &#187; Opening up my world</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 16:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-17921</guid>
		<description>[...] Will&#8217;s recent reflection on Social Computing and subsequent comments, challenged his thinking. While the gist of his latest discussion focuses on considering &#8220;big picture&#8221; thinking, the phrase &#8220;pushed me to think&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Will&#8217;s recent reflection on Social Computing and subsequent comments, challenged his thinking. While the gist of his latest discussion focuses on considering &#8220;big picture&#8221; thinking, the phrase &#8220;pushed me to think&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Weblogg-ed &#187; 7,500 Words on the Irony of Social Computing Degrees Later&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-1/#comment-17909</link>
		<dc:creator>Weblogg-ed &#187; 7,500 Words on the Irony of Social Computing Degrees Later&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 14:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-17909</guid>
		<description>[...] So the whole conversation that has developed over the last two days has been another one of those amazing, intellectually stimulating back and forths that I feel extremely privileged to be involved in. Let me just say at the outset that the number of quality, thoughtful comments that have been coming to this blog of late has just blown me away, and I thank all of you for being willing to participate. I can only hope that those contributing or reading are getting as much if not more than I. There is another entire post forming slowly that connects this to the whole Classroom 2.0 idea and some other stuff that&#8217;s evolving out of it&#8230;but that&#8217;s for another day. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] So the whole conversation that has developed over the last two days has been another one of those amazing, intellectually stimulating back and forths that I feel extremely privileged to be involved in. Let me just say at the outset that the number of quality, thoughtful comments that have been coming to this blog of late has just blown me away, and I thank all of you for being willing to participate. I can only hope that those contributing or reading are getting as much if not more than I. There is another entire post forming slowly that connects this to the whole Classroom 2.0 idea and some other stuff that&#8217;s evolving out of it&#8230;but that&#8217;s for another day. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: OLDaily[中文版] &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 2007年4月6日</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-1/#comment-17908</link>
		<dc:creator>OLDaily[中文版] &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 2007年4月6日</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 14:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-17908</guid>
		<description>[...] 我也曾想去申请个学位，可花费这些时间我宁可用来自个儿工作。Will Richardson评论：“那么，有人发现这有点讽刺吗？我的意思是说：在这个世界上，真的有这么个特殊的学位，能够‘证明’一个人是社会性技术专家，比一个花了一年多时间沉浸到一个社会性学习网络，从该网络里大量的老师和对话中学习的人要强吗？” Will Richardson, Weblogg-Ed April 6, 2007 [原文链接] [Tags: Networks] [参与评论] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 我也曾想去申请个学位，可花费这些时间我宁可用来自个儿工作。Will Richardson评论：“那么，有人发现这有点讽刺吗？我的意思是说：在这个世界上，真的有这么个特殊的学位，能够‘证明’一个人是社会性技术专家，比一个花了一年多时间沉浸到一个社会性学习网络，从该网络里大量的老师和对话中学习的人要强吗？” Will Richardson, Weblogg-Ed April 6, 2007 [原文链接] [Tags: Networks] [参与评论] [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Hoffman</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-1/#comment-17867</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Hoffman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 03:45:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-17867</guid>
		<description>There are just some facts on the ground that are missing from this conversation.  Several of these courses are simply on topics that do not have a lot of easily accessible literature.  Do some Google and Amazon searches for designing or analyzing reputation or recommendation systems.  You don&#039;t find a lot.  There isn&#039;t even a lot of open source code for these, because these are systems that are very focused on providing a competitive edge for companies.  They&#039;re too complicated to dash off useful blog posts or brief HOWTO&#039;s about.  A graduate level course in game theory is a prerequisite for the course in recommender systems!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are just some facts on the ground that are missing from this conversation.  Several of these courses are simply on topics that do not have a lot of easily accessible literature.  Do some Google and Amazon searches for designing or analyzing reputation or recommendation systems.  You don&#8217;t find a lot.  There isn&#8217;t even a lot of open source code for these, because these are systems that are very focused on providing a competitive edge for companies.  They&#8217;re too complicated to dash off useful blog posts or brief HOWTO&#8217;s about.  A graduate level course in game theory is a prerequisite for the course in recommender systems!</p>
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		<title>By: Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-1/#comment-17859</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheryl Nussbaum-Beach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 02:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-17859</guid>
		<description>Thanks Brian. 

Yeah... I am in my PhD program right now too. I have presented on the research I mentioned a couple of times too at national conferences-- last one AACTE in NY. However, the journal has been reviewing the article for 9 months. (It is a top journal and tough to get in-- but we havent even been turned down yet) Like you, this isnt my dissertation either-- it is a project I helped write a grant for and led year one implementation and research (wrote the article) and am now overseeing year two implementation of the project. (if you are interested in knowing more... &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.21stcenturycollaborative.com/projects.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Click Here&lt;/a&gt;

However, my point wasnt about the PhD programs-- my point was that with the trend toward self-publishing, citizen journalism, and the immediate feedback available in the blogosphere-- the turn around time in peer reviewed journals was going to have to improve, especially at the rate technology and information is changing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Brian. </p>
<p>Yeah&#8230; I am in my PhD program right now too. I have presented on the research I mentioned a couple of times too at national conferences&#8211; last one AACTE in NY. However, the journal has been reviewing the article for 9 months. (It is a top journal and tough to get in&#8211; but we havent even been turned down yet) Like you, this isnt my dissertation either&#8211; it is a project I helped write a grant for and led year one implementation and research (wrote the article) and am now overseeing year two implementation of the project. (if you are interested in knowing more&#8230; <a href="http://www.21stcenturycollaborative.com/projects.html" rel="nofollow">Click Here</a></p>
<p>However, my point wasnt about the PhD programs&#8211; my point was that with the trend toward self-publishing, citizen journalism, and the immediate feedback available in the blogosphere&#8211; the turn around time in peer reviewed journals was going to have to improve, especially at the rate technology and information is changing.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian B</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-1/#comment-17858</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 02:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-17858</guid>
		<description>Sheryl, I think you will find that a lot of PhD programs have changed quite a bit. We have several of my classmates already published in academic journals based on the research they have conducted for our Qualitative and Quantitative research courses. I am awaiting acceptance (or denial perhaps) of my research to be presented this summer at a national conference of educational professors - with my first research project, and my second project is currently underway. Neither of these projects is my dissertation - in fact I&#039;d like to get them published so that I can cite them in my dissertation - not very many can say they&#039;ve done that! (Perhaps a little silly, but I think it would be fun).

I definitely see your point about using Web 2.0 tools to collaborate with &quot;experts&quot; - our major problem here is that some of the experts don&#039;t understand the tools of Web 2.0. Most of our professors at least try - and with our (my cohort) encouragement, they end up pretty successful. Who&#039;s teaching who here?

Will, I think you&#039;ve really gotten some good discussion going on here - 40+ replies and climbing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sheryl, I think you will find that a lot of PhD programs have changed quite a bit. We have several of my classmates already published in academic journals based on the research they have conducted for our Qualitative and Quantitative research courses. I am awaiting acceptance (or denial perhaps) of my research to be presented this summer at a national conference of educational professors &#8211; with my first research project, and my second project is currently underway. Neither of these projects is my dissertation &#8211; in fact I&#8217;d like to get them published so that I can cite them in my dissertation &#8211; not very many can say they&#8217;ve done that! (Perhaps a little silly, but I think it would be fun).</p>
<p>I definitely see your point about using Web 2.0 tools to collaborate with &#8220;experts&#8221; &#8211; our major problem here is that some of the experts don&#8217;t understand the tools of Web 2.0. Most of our professors at least try &#8211; and with our (my cohort) encouragement, they end up pretty successful. Who&#8217;s teaching who here?</p>
<p>Will, I think you&#8217;ve really gotten some good discussion going on here &#8211; 40+ replies and climbing!</p>
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		<title>By: Liz Lawley</title>
		<link>http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/comment-page-1/#comment-17852</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz Lawley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 01:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-degree-in-social-computing-ohthe-irony/#comment-17852</guid>
		<description>Will, debates like this are absolutely a good example of a back-and-forth collaborative learning process. But expecting that people will systematically (a) seek out and (b) find examples of every important theme and its associated points of view is--I think--naive. 

The real value of a formal educational process is that all too often &quot;we don&#039;t know what we don&#039;t know&quot;--and so without a systematic structured approach to a complex topic we run the very real risk of not seeing the big picture, and falling into the trap of generalizing from our anecdotal experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will, debates like this are absolutely a good example of a back-and-forth collaborative learning process. But expecting that people will systematically (a) seek out and (b) find examples of every important theme and its associated points of view is&#8211;I think&#8211;naive. </p>
<p>The real value of a formal educational process is that all too often &#8220;we don&#8217;t know what we don&#8217;t know&#8221;&#8211;and so without a systematic structured approach to a complex topic we run the very real risk of not seeing the big picture, and falling into the trap of generalizing from our anecdotal experience.</p>
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