Comments on: “A Call for Manners in the World of Nasty Blogs”–NY Times http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/ Learning with the Read/Write Web Tue, 19 Jul 2011 20:36:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Allison Morris http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-19420 Allison Morris Mon, 23 Apr 2007 01:55:12 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-19420 I was pleased to see the article in the Times as well as to read your post. I am a high school English teacher and I love giving students the ability to express themselves through blogs and discussion boards. I ran into a problem a few years ago with students "being uncivil" toward other students in a discussion board. It was an exhausting issue, it took time, discipline and parent involvement to rectify the situation. It also left me with a bad feeling about opening up the discussion/blogs with students. But as there is always light at the end of the tunnel, my technological support team has created a student-only internal discussion and blog site where I release the comments. This being said, I still feel as if I am "big brother" in terms of their learning. Any advice? Thanks so much, Allison I was pleased to see the article in the Times as well as to read your post. I am a high school English teacher and I love giving students the ability to express themselves through blogs and discussion boards. I ran into a problem a few years ago with students “being uncivil” toward other students in a discussion board. It was an exhausting issue, it took time, discipline and parent involvement to rectify the situation. It also left me with a bad feeling about opening up the discussion/blogs with students. But as there is always light at the end of the tunnel, my technological support team has created a student-only internal discussion and blog site where I release the comments. This being said, I still feel as if I am “big brother” in terms of their learning. Any advice?
Thanks so much,
Allison

]]> By: Emily Armour http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18689 Emily Armour Sat, 14 Apr 2007 23:43:44 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18689 This dichotomy between the blogosphere’s mission to establish transparency by the blogger while enabling a total lack of transparency by anonymous comments is so intriguing. In the school district where I’m employed, we are trying to (finally) enter the field of blogging with teachers and students. I firmly believe that school SHOULD be a place where students can experiment, make mistakes, and learn to do better, as opposed to at home where there may not have supervision or example (as Britto alludes to here). We are certainly struggling with the balance between creating a safe, but still authentic, online environment for students and teachers. This dichotomy between the blogosphere’s mission to establish transparency by the blogger while enabling a total lack of transparency by anonymous comments is so intriguing. In the school district where I’m employed, we are trying to (finally) enter the field of blogging with teachers and students. I firmly believe that school SHOULD be a place where students can experiment, make mistakes, and learn to do better, as opposed to at home where there may not have supervision or example (as Britto alludes to here). We are certainly struggling with the balance between creating a safe, but still authentic, online environment for students and teachers.

]]> By: dave cormier http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18402 dave cormier Wed, 11 Apr 2007 23:14:08 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18402 We do have communities where anonymous posting is not possible (or is at least controlled) My blog is one... i don't allow anonymous posting. I actually don't much like anonymous posting. I do, however, support people's right to it and their right to have communities where they can post anonymously... as it creates a style of debate that is not possible in a situation where your views might be seen by your boss, family, friends, partners... I'm thinking of a large section of the mommybloggers who are anonymous for this very reason. We do have communities where anonymous posting is not possible (or is at least controlled) My blog is one… i don’t allow anonymous posting. I actually don’t much like anonymous posting. I do, however, support people’s right to it and their right to have communities where they can post anonymously… as it creates a style of debate that is not possible in a situation where your views might be seen by your boss, family, friends, partners… I’m thinking of a large section of the mommybloggers who are anonymous for this very reason.

]]> By: Chluper http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18388 Chluper Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:16:48 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18388 Sorry, a coding error, on my part, dropped much of my comment and you most certainly did not make that statement. I was suggesting that maybe there is something to establishing communities where ability to be anonymous is removed. This creates a whole new set of issues including privacy, censorship, discrimination, etc..., but the result would be a system that does not remove one's responsibility for their words. Also it would be an individual's choice whether to participate or not. I think it is the lack of accountability for actions on the Internet that is at the heart of the Sierra problem. Sorry, a coding error, on my part, dropped much of my comment and you most certainly did not make that statement.

I was suggesting that maybe there is something to establishing communities where ability to be anonymous is removed.

This creates a whole new set of issues including privacy, censorship, discrimination, etc…, but the result would be a system that does not remove one’s responsibility for their words. Also it would be an individual’s choice whether to participate or not.

I think it is the lack of accountability for actions on the Internet that is at the heart of the Sierra problem.

]]> By: dave cormier http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18385 dave cormier Wed, 11 Apr 2007 19:39:37 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18385 umm... i don't want to extinguish subcultures... did i say that somewhere? Christy I think that values can be important for any community... though I tend to think of 'social contracts'. I do think that the key reason we need the 'full' internet in the classroom is to pass on values to our students. I also don't think that that will help with the Sierra problem, which is where this particular issue came to the forefront again. umm… i don’t want to extinguish subcultures… did i say that somewhere?

Christy I think that values can be important for any community… though I tend to think of ‘social contracts’. I do think that the key reason we need the ‘full’ internet in the classroom is to pass on values to our students.

I also don’t think that that will help with the Sierra problem, which is where this particular issue came to the forefront again.

]]> By: Chluper http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18346 Chluper Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:45:42 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18346 I think this is just an example of how the anonymous nature of the Internet has contributed to a culture of anything goes thinking. While free speech is great and open dialogue is a keystone of democracy, during no other time in history has it been so easy for an individual to threaten, accuse, or libel without accepting personal responsibility. I disagree with Mr. Cormier's quote, <blockquote cite="no. we are talking about subcultures… subcultures that thrive on the rules that people are talking about making ‘the rule’ of the internet. I mean really. Can this really make sense?"> Should we not strive to create a blogosphere that limits or extinguishes these "sub-cultures", as opposed to giving them safe-harbor? I think this is just an example of how the anonymous nature of the Internet has contributed to a culture of anything goes thinking. While free speech is great and open dialogue is a keystone of democracy, during no other time in history has it been so easy for an individual to threaten, accuse, or libel without accepting personal responsibility.

I disagree with Mr. Cormier’s quote,

Should we not strive to create a blogosphere that limits or extinguishes these “sub-cultures”, as opposed to giving them safe-harbor?

]]> By: Christy Tucker http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18269 Christy Tucker Wed, 11 Apr 2007 02:12:09 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18269 Dana, glad we're all OK now. I just finished writing up some thoughts in the <a> group about identifying a set of values rather than a more detailed code of conduct. What if we identified the values we want to reflect (respect, responsibility, lifelong learning, compassion, integrity, etc.), using those key words as our guide? Focusing on values might do more to encourage conversation about how we want to behave. "Respect" means different things in different contexts; we would be asking students (and ourselves) to think about the situation and the best response rather than pretending a black and white rule will fix all problems. We can help try to bring out the best in each other rather than trying to beat out the worst in each other. What do you think? (That question is for anyone, not just Dana.) Dave, do you think focusing on values to strive for could work where codifying and enforcing conduct won't? Dana, glad we’re all OK now.

I just finished writing up some thoughts in the group about identifying a set of values rather than a more detailed code of conduct. What if we identified the values we want to reflect (respect, responsibility, lifelong learning, compassion, integrity, etc.), using those key words as our guide? Focusing on values might do more to encourage conversation about how we want to behave. “Respect” means different things in different contexts; we would be asking students (and ourselves) to think about the situation and the best response rather than pretending a black and white rule will fix all problems. We can help try to bring out the best in each other rather than trying to beat out the worst in each other.

What do you think? (That question is for anyone, not just Dana.) Dave, do you think focusing on values to strive for could work where codifying and enforcing conduct won’t?

]]> By: dave cormier http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18253 dave cormier Tue, 10 Apr 2007 22:16:02 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18253 I say, for the hundredth time, once you need to codify it... you've lost it. A code of conduct can only be out of date... The inclusion of the anti-anonymity-ness is a conflation. Whether or not someone announces who they are is a question of 'enforcement.' Once we start talking about enforcement... well that forces us to ask whose enforcement we're talking about. If it is the much lauded 'enforcement by popular ridicule' i ask you all... who do you think is doing obnoxious, insulting and threatening things on the internet? If they were looking for our approval WOULD THEY REALLY BE SENDING KATHY SIERRA A PICTURE WITH A NOOSE AROUND HER NECK!?! no. we are talking about subcultures... subcultures that thrive on the rules that people are talking about making 'the rule' of the internet. I mean really. Can this really make sense? I say, for the hundredth time, once you need to codify it… you’ve lost it. A code of conduct can only be out of date…

The inclusion of the anti-anonymity-ness is a conflation. Whether or not someone announces who they are is a question of ‘enforcement.’ Once we start talking about enforcement… well that forces us to ask whose enforcement we’re talking about.

If it is the much lauded ‘enforcement by popular ridicule’ i ask you all… who do you think is doing obnoxious, insulting and threatening things on the internet? If they were looking for our approval WOULD THEY REALLY BE SENDING KATHY SIERRA A PICTURE WITH A NOOSE AROUND HER NECK!?!

no. we are talking about subcultures… subcultures that thrive on the rules that people are talking about making ‘the rule’ of the internet. I mean really. Can this really make sense?

]]> By: imma http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18247 imma Tue, 10 Apr 2007 21:10:34 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18247 Ciao, sono una laureanda che sta preparando la tesi sul blog. Sono molto interessanti le cose che dici a proposito del blog in educazione. Non sono daccordo con coloro che scrivono cose non belle , quando invece è così bello condividere conscenza e pensieri. Potrebbe indicarmi dove posso trovare dei siti sull'uso del blog in educazione scritto da lei? Può visitare il mio blog in modo da scambiare opinioni? Ringrazio. Imma Ciao,
sono una laureanda che sta preparando la tesi sul blog. Sono molto interessanti le cose che dici a proposito del blog in educazione. Non sono daccordo con coloro che scrivono cose non belle , quando invece è così bello condividere conscenza e pensieri.
Potrebbe indicarmi dove posso trovare dei siti sull’uso del blog in educazione scritto da lei?
Può visitare il mio blog in modo da scambiare opinioni?
Ringrazio.
Imma

]]> By: Dana Huff http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18240 Dana Huff Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:15:44 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18240 No need to apologize. I didn't make myself clear. I actually do have students blogging with first name and last initial. If they had to provide their full names, I couldn't ask them to blog. I do think there is a place for online "personas." What bugs me, and what I think perhaps these guidelines are trying to address, are people who use anonymity to hurt others. I don't think I could go for a guideline that said people have to use their full real names to blog. I do, but not everyone has that same comfort level, and rather than cut off some really good bloggers, I would rather address the issue of those who are anonymous because they want to say something nasty and not have to take responsibility for it. No need to apologize. I didn’t make myself clear. I actually do have students blogging with first name and last initial. If they had to provide their full names, I couldn’t ask them to blog. I do think there is a place for online “personas.” What bugs me, and what I think perhaps these guidelines are trying to address, are people who use anonymity to hurt others. I don’t think I could go for a guideline that said people have to use their full real names to blog. I do, but not everyone has that same comfort level, and rather than cut off some really good bloggers, I would rather address the issue of those who are anonymous because they want to say something nasty and not have to take responsibility for it.

]]> By: Christy Tucker http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18215 Christy Tucker Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:44:36 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18215 Ah, I see, Dana! OK, I think I misinterpreted what you were asking for. It sounds like we are essentially in agreement, just that we said it differently! I think some of the people in the Stop Cyberbullying group on Ning would not want nicknames or pseudonyms either, based on some comments there. My impression is that there are people who want full, real names only, with the ability to verify the identity. I got poo-pooed a bit there for saying that when I talk about religion on Beliefnet that I use a different username and am careful that it doesn't get tied to my RL identity. I choose to keep my religion and politics out of my professional life, so I use pseudonyms. Obviously, not everyone else feels that need, and that's fine too. Just because it's the right choice for me doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone else. You might want to check out the discussions in the forum on the <a href="http://stopcyberbullying.ning.com/" rel="nofollow">Stop Cyberbullying</a> group to see some of the more drastic views. (Like the person who argued that women who have left abusive relationships simply shouldn't participate in any online conversations if they want to protect their identities, rather than allowing them to use pseudonyms or affording a level of anonymity.) I apologize, Dana; I assumed you were in line with those views from your comments and I was obviously wrong. Right now I'm feeling like everyone calling for a disallowing anonymity is at that extreme end of the spectrum, and I jumped to a conclusion with you that I shouldn't have. Please forgive my error! Ah, I see, Dana! OK, I think I misinterpreted what you were asking for. It sounds like we are essentially in agreement, just that we said it differently!

I think some of the people in the Stop Cyberbullying group on Ning would not want nicknames or pseudonyms either, based on some comments there. My impression is that there are people who want full, real names only, with the ability to verify the identity. I got poo-pooed a bit there for saying that when I talk about religion on Beliefnet that I use a different username and am careful that it doesn’t get tied to my RL identity. I choose to keep my religion and politics out of my professional life, so I use pseudonyms. Obviously, not everyone else feels that need, and that’s fine too. Just because it’s the right choice for me doesn’t mean it’s the right choice for everyone else.

You might want to check out the discussions in the forum on the Stop Cyberbullying group to see some of the more drastic views. (Like the person who argued that women who have left abusive relationships simply shouldn’t participate in any online conversations if they want to protect their identities, rather than allowing them to use pseudonyms or affording a level of anonymity.)

I apologize, Dana; I assumed you were in line with those views from your comments and I was obviously wrong. Right now I’m feeling like everyone calling for a disallowing anonymity is at that extreme end of the spectrum, and I jumped to a conclusion with you that I shouldn’t have. Please forgive my error!

]]> By: Dana Huff http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18174 Dana Huff Tue, 10 Apr 2007 03:51:06 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18174 "If we want the world to be a more civilized place–online and offline–I think our best options are education, providing good examples through our own behavior, and not tolerating bad behavior in situations where we have control. Those tools are going to let us do more than any technological fixes." I agree completely and couldn't have said it better. I must have missed something, though... why wouldn't students be allowed to use first name last initial under the guidelines? When I think anonymity, I guess I'm thinking more or less those comments that actually use "Anonymous." What is the consensus about using a nickname or blogging under a pseudonym? I ask because I really don't know and am wondering if Will or any other commenters do know. “If we want the world to be a more civilized place–online and offline–I think our best options are education, providing good examples through our own behavior, and not tolerating bad behavior in situations where we have control. Those tools are going to let us do more than any technological fixes.”

I agree completely and couldn’t have said it better. I must have missed something, though… why wouldn’t students be allowed to use first name last initial under the guidelines? When I think anonymity, I guess I’m thinking more or less those comments that actually use “Anonymous.” What is the consensus about using a nickname or blogging under a pseudonym? I ask because I really don’t know and am wondering if Will or any other commenters do know.

]]> By: Christy Tucker http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18169 Christy Tucker Tue, 10 Apr 2007 03:00:06 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18169 Dana, I think first name, last initial is a great solution for younger students, and is a much better idea than younger students using their full names anyway. Unfortunately, most of the calls to remove anonymity would not permit them to protect their identities in that way. I would really like to find a middle ground where we can protect people like your husband from abuse without disallowing people protecting their identities. Ultimately, I don't think that there is going to be a technological solution to these issues. You can require email addresses for comments, but those are easy to fake (I think I have 6-8 addresses currently). You can add a rating systems for users (even pseudonymous ones like those on Beliefnet), but rating systems can be gamed or people can always create a fresh account if they get to many bad ratings. These tools might alleviate certain issues, but they won't ultimately be complete solutions. If we want the world to be a more civilized place--online and offline--I think our best options are education, providing good examples through our own behavior, and not tolerating bad behavior in situations where we have control. Those tools are going to let us do more than any technological fixes. Dana, I think first name, last initial is a great solution for younger students, and is a much better idea than younger students using their full names anyway. Unfortunately, most of the calls to remove anonymity would not permit them to protect their identities in that way. I would really like to find a middle ground where we can protect people like your husband from abuse without disallowing people protecting their identities.

Ultimately, I don’t think that there is going to be a technological solution to these issues. You can require email addresses for comments, but those are easy to fake (I think I have 6-8 addresses currently). You can add a rating systems for users (even pseudonymous ones like those on Beliefnet), but rating systems can be gamed or people can always create a fresh account if they get to many bad ratings. These tools might alleviate certain issues, but they won’t ultimately be complete solutions.

If we want the world to be a more civilized place–online and offline–I think our best options are education, providing good examples through our own behavior, and not tolerating bad behavior in situations where we have control. Those tools are going to let us do more than any technological fixes.

]]> By: Brian Crosby http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18167 Brian Crosby Tue, 10 Apr 2007 02:41:19 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18167 Generally I think you are right. However there has been some creeping in here or there - name calling - inuendo - snippiness - that so far has only continued if the reciever responds in kind or seems to be overly reactive. There are just a few edblogs right now where groups "colonize" them and rant their point of view if the blogger puts up with it. I think this might be one of those areas where it shows up slowly and is only really noticed once it has become an issue. But ... maybe I'm wrong. Generally I think you are right. However there has been some creeping in here or there – name calling – inuendo – snippiness – that so far has only continued if the reciever responds in kind or seems to be overly reactive. There are just a few edblogs right now where groups “colonize” them and rant their point of view if the blogger puts up with it. I think this might be one of those areas where it shows up slowly and is only really noticed once it has become an issue. But … maybe I’m wrong.

]]> By: Jamie Britto http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/comment-page-1/#comment-18159 Jamie Britto Tue, 10 Apr 2007 01:12:53 +0000 http://weblogg-ed.com/2007/a-call-for-manners-in-the-world-of-nasty-blogs-ny-times/#comment-18159 You know I was really glad to see that headline when I pulled up the Times site. It coincided with a number of things that I had heard or been thinking about recently, and it kind of helped clarify and articulate some thoughts and feelings that hadn't quite jelled yet for me. First of all, I have been doing a number of presentations and talking with parents about the dangers of the Internet, and I've started to work on a follow-up presentation and discussion about the positive side of things as well as something I'm still wrestling with. It has do with honor or reputation or creating an online persona (footnote to Sherry Turkle) with integrity, but for now civility sums it up nicely if not quite completely. The question I want to explore is how do we encourage civil behavior in our children and in our students? The second thing is that I listened to an Educause online presentation last Thursday with two guys from Rochester Institute of Technology. They were discussing a study they had done about unethical online behavior among their students and they made two points that hit home for me. #1 was that kids in their study typically became the principal users of their home computers around age 10 #2 was that there was no real adult role model for them in terms of how to act online so they frequently adopted their peers “normative” behavior (kind of reminds me of Lord of Flies.) So I was glad to see people who know this world, and have thought carefully about these issues take a stab at outlining 3 different levels of how to behave properly online It gives me something to chew on, (and I'll do that with small bites and my mouth properly closed.) You know I was really glad to see that headline when I pulled up the Times site. It coincided with a number of things that I had heard or been thinking about recently, and it kind of helped clarify and articulate some thoughts and feelings that hadn’t quite jelled yet for me.

First of all, I have been doing a number of presentations and talking with parents about the dangers of the Internet, and I’ve started to work on a follow-up presentation and discussion about the positive side of things as well as something I’m still wrestling with. It has do with honor or reputation or creating an online persona (footnote to Sherry Turkle) with integrity, but for now civility sums it up nicely if not quite completely. The question I want to explore is how do we encourage civil behavior in our children and in our students?

The second thing is that I listened to an Educause online presentation last Thursday with two guys from Rochester Institute of Technology. They were discussing a study they had done about unethical online behavior among their students and they made two points that hit home for me.

#1 was that kids in their study typically became the principal users of their home computers around age 10

#2 was that there was no real adult role model for them in terms of how to act online so they frequently adopted their peers “normative” behavior (kind of reminds me of Lord of Flies.)

So I was glad to see people who know this world, and have thought carefully about these issues take a stab at outlining 3 different levels of how to behave properly online It gives me something to chew on, (and I’ll do that with small bites and my mouth properly closed.)

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